Three words:

FINAL FANTASY TACTICS

hard as hell to get nowadays but has the best storyline in any game I''ve ever seen(IMHO). Plus, half the games for the station could stop it as far as graphics go! In probably the smartest move ever for a game developer the tactics team dumped almost every traditional FF gameplay aspect and designed the WHOLE game to focus on story!

Just pointing out what I thought was cool.



-----------------------------

Blue*Omega

(Insert Witty Quote Here)

MatrixCubed:

I''m one of those freaks who needs fascinating gameplay. The last game I purchased (two months ago) was Diablo II, because I wanted to play it online with my friends. I like the game, but I''m not going to sacrifice animals to it. I used to put down FF8 because the gameplay was absolutely horrible. I''m surprised I haven''t been assassinated by Squaresoft fanatics.

Give me good gameplay, or give me back my money.

One of my friends (the same guy who convinced me to buy Diablo II) plays Everquest. Personally, I despise the damn game, so I asked him what it was about modern MMORPG''s that he enjoyed. I asked him to cite comparisons between other games, like Baldur''s Gate II. The conversation went something like this:

Earlier in our chat, I mentioned the upcoming arrival of an expansion pack for BG2, and Jon said he didn''t really like the game. I brought this up again a bit later.

Tom: What is it about [Everquest] that you like?
Jon: I think it''s the fantasy setting.
Tom: By that rationale, you should like Baldur''s Gate. What''s the difference?
Jon: I like first-person games better.
Tom: Is it the amount of control you have over your character?
Jon: Yeah, that''s probably it.

We also discussed the mechanics of level advancement and community structure and came up with several very interesting conclusions. I''m thinking about posting an article online with our findings. This subject is gnawing at me because I''m in the process of building an RPG, and I would like to support multiple players. The study of MMORPG''s could almost be a science in its own right.

Back to MatrixCubed:

One of the reasons Jon likes Everquest is because the game has no linearity to it. He dislikes stories that must be followed to the letter. Personally, this is precisely the reason I hate the game; it has no flow. I think the best compromise between linearity and freedom is exhibited in Chrono Trigger, which has a very linear story with just enough variety that you want to play through it more than once.

Can we walk the line between the two, where gameplay is not hindered by the story, and the story is not ruined by chaotic gameplay? The designers of Asheron''s Call seem to be trying this. (I subscribed to the game for a couple months sometime back. I terminated my subscription when I realized how shallow the gameplay actually was.)

Community fails in today''s MUD''s and MMORPG''s because 90 percent of players are idiots. And when they read this, they''ll think I''m referring to the other 90 percent. They''re the people who take no pride in the world they''re supposed to create. An online game is not about who can score the most kills. It''s about community, and most people just don''t get it.

I don''t know of a solution. I wish I did. Jon and I came up with the idea of separating an MMORPG world into several planes of existence, allowing only certain levels of characters into each plane, to keep the community segregated by power. This sounds risky, but I believe it would work extremely well, because lvl-50 necromancers do not need to interact with lvl-2 monks.

I''ll probably write an article about this. Somebody besides me might find it interesting. Thanks for reading.

To make an example of MMORPGs, take a look at the main portion of the game''s system: levelling, experience, combat, and magic.

So what if that was omitted from the engine, and we improved other areas that make community management easier?

- Regional coinage, so that vendors in a certain area will only take money minted in the region in question. (i.e. the blacksmith in Gandoorne refuses to take coins minted in Trillium Bay City because of the current political state). All server controlled, of course, but the game could certainly allow for players who rise to power, to decide the type or exchange rate of currency. Great bartering opportunities for PC merchants.

- Limited but highly detailed crafting, so that players don''t need to spend hours and hours working on crafting skills to get better at it. (See below for further ideas on skills.)

- Skill advancement based on time, rather than frequency of use. A grandmaster warrior in a week? Not possible, since the minimum age to begin my game will be around 10 or 12 years of age. Show me a twelve year old grandmaster swordsman, and I''ll eat my hat. And perhaps a skill level may never be reached if one does not test the limits of his or her skill often. Let''s say once per 3 game months a character may increase his skill in something. If he practises that skill every day (not for the whole day, but rather against someone considered his statistical equal) and considers it his primary skill, then it will advance. Likewise if someone never tests the limit of his ability, he will never advance.

- Character recycling. Imagine if your character has a lifespan. Now imagine not being able to resurrect your character if he / she dies. (More noted on this below.)

- On that same note, characters get older, appearences change. Hair falls out or gets grey.

- Things like monsters are a rarity, but I want to make them legendary like in Greek or Roman myth, where only the greatest heroes were able to defeat them. Likewise, I want to make creatures more intelligent and implement AI much more in depth than "approach, attack, run away if wounded".

- Two characters who "marry" may eventually have children. Not sure how I will completely implement this but it''ll probably automatic. (Maybe the couple have to give offerings at the shrine of the fertility goddess to be blessed with a child, for example).

- Children may inherit their parents'' traits and appearances.

These are just some of the things I want to try to implement. I''m not sure I''ll implement all items mentioned above, but they''re some of the things necessary to have a "community game". Provide the stage, and the players will become actors.


MatrixCubed
http://MatrixCubed.org

quote: Original post by MatrixCubed
- Regional coinage, so that vendors in a certain area will only take money minted in the region in question. (i.e. the blacksmith in Gandoorne refuses to take coins minted in Trillium Bay City because of the current political state). All server controlled, of course, but the game could certainly allow for players who rise to power, to decide the type or exchange rate of currency. Great bartering opportunities for PC merchants.

This would work well with player-run countries. Country government decides the coinage.

quote: Original post by MatrixCubed
- Limited but highly detailed crafting, so that players don''t
- Skill advancement based on time, rather than frequency of use. A grandmaster warrior in a week? Not possible, since the minimum age to begin my game will be around 10 or 12 years of age. Show me a twelve year old grandmaster swordsman, and I''ll eat my hat. And perhaps a skill level may never be reached if one does not test the limits of his or her skill often. Let''s say once per 3 game months a character may increase his skill in something. If he practises that skill every day (not for the whole day, but rather against someone considered his statistical equal) and considers it his primary skill, then it will advance. Likewise if someone never tests the limit of his ability, he will never advance.

That sounds similar to skill attrition, which I remember being discussed a while back in a post somewhere in the dank, dark depths of this forum.

quote: Original post by MatrixCubed
- Two characters who "marry" may eventually have children. Not sure how I will completely implement this but it''ll probably automatic. (Maybe the couple have to give offerings at the shrine of the fertility goddess to be blessed with a child, for example).

What would be fun, would be if the "children" could be inhabited by new players. Maybe even the only way to get into the game. (NPC couples could procreate as well, giving a large enough potential for the playerbase, but placement would be random, you''d never know what family you''d get born into. Would be great for dynasties)

That''s actually part of the idea... that you play characters as offspring of your own. Again, I''m not sure how this would be implemented, but it''s definitely on the back burner.


MatrixCubed
http://MatrixCubed.org

I''m happy to see the amount of cluefulness expressed in the posts on MMORPGs. I think you make some valid points, but i''d like to adress a few things:

Ok, you''ve said you''re gonna remove "levelling, experience, combat, and magic". I''m still listening. What''s all this going to be replaced with? Skills, ok, but no monsters, at least not that many. So, no combat, or just lot of player vs player? If no combat, then what? If lots of player vs player, then what motivates the majority of players to fight each other? What equalizes the players enough for PvP to be fun for the people who arn''t quite the most powerful?

With regards to your skill system, you have to make a system that''s like a pool: tough to run through, but easy enough to float by. That is, it should be very, very tough to power level, and making it a function (in part) of age would be a very good start. Make it a system of diminishing returns, so that the casual player can move maybe 1/2 as fast as the player that''s on 10 times as much. People have a tendancy to lose their lives to these games, and you have to work to make the game fun both for them and the casual gamer. Remember, unless you''re charging hourly, the hardcore player uses more of your resources for the same amount of money, but the benefit is the good word of mouth and player base. The real cash comes from the casual gamer with MMORPGs when using the monthly subscription service method (i hate to bring up market forces in game design, but it''s really just a practical excuse for doing what i think is best anyway).

It seems a fairly common desire amoung game designers to make magic or monsters or dragons or whatever very rare, but the fact is that if it''s rare the the hardcore players, then the casual gamer will never see it, and if it''s rare to the causal gamer, the hardcore gamer will be used to it, and in the case of magic, if the hardcore gamer is used to it, then the casual gamers will soon be, too. Remember, the point of games, even MMORPGs, is to be fun. If most people never see half the features, then the game better be great with just the other half (and people will still be annoyed, just ''cause there''s stuff they can''t do).

As an aside: the one thing that i''ve seen completely fsck''d up in every MMORPG i''ve seen since 1996 is the economy. Inflation hits and just steps all over the balance. Remember that economics is not a closed system, but it is self-regulating, in general. There should be as many outlets as sources. There should ALWAYS be stuff to buy. Shops run by NPCs and PCs alike should have dynamic pricing based on supply and demand (hell, even include a mini stock-market if you like, whatever to create a self-balancing economy).

Ok, now to bring all this back on topic.

I suggest that the way you handle opposing forces, PvP, lack of monsters, etc. in these games is to let players play both sides of the battle. If it were a Tolkienish fantasy world, let them be orcs, elves, dwarves, hobbits, and humans. Tempt them with the simple pleasures and instant-action of being an orc, or the slow but mystical powers of the elves. Let the older characters whose muscles are no longer as thick as their wallets get in to positions of power, leading armies or governing towns. The newbie looking for action should be able to fast-track by enlisting, rather than spending eternity roaming, looking for stray monsters, like most MMORPGs. This takes care of both the endless leveling seen in most games and the "what do i do" and slow starting problems of newbies. This depends on having no godlike characters or equipment, of course. A group of fairly new recruits should be able to take out even the more powerful generals, despite his years of service.

I said i was getting back to the topic, though. So, as the maintainer of this world, sketch out a plan for the story. Very broad, no one person heroics, or if there have to be to make the game interesting, then have a game-master play it themselves. Don''t think of the game as a rollercoaster ride that many people can go on, but rather an evolving storyline that people join and leave at any time. I suggest recruiting a medium sized task force of both paid and volunteer game-masters to take on roles of varying importance to the story. Stir up some trouble and intrigue, and help out where things are getting rough. The point, though, is that you can guide the story on the epic scale, introducing plot points, devulging motives, and getting people to think, at least hopefully.

Well, if any of you have survived this far, congrats. I hope you enjoyed it, and there''s plenty more where that came from.

-ben.c

quote: Original post by Shelrem
Ok, you''ve said you''re gonna remove "levelling, experience, combat, and magic". I''m still listening. What''s all this going to be replaced with? Skills, ok, but no monsters, at least not that many. So, no combat, or just lot of player vs player? If no combat, then what? If lots of player vs player, then what motivates the majority of players to fight each other? What equalizes the players enough for PvP to be fun for the people who aren''t quite the most powerful?

I guess I shouldn''t have said "omitted"... what was meant was "moved focus away from", in that magic will be experimental (more on this in another post), and combat is little more than (a) arm yourself, (b) select an opponent to combat, (c) run away if damaged. Levelling I want to make relatively transparent, again using time as a basis for advancement.

Monsters are a different beast (no pun intended). Rather than having "training monsters", "intermediate monsters", and "killer monsters", I want to make them completely rare. Legendary. Perhaps have ONE creature of certain species in the world, that travels around and eludes certain types of people. This isn''t intended as a multi-thousand-player game, because I also want to inhabit the game world with script-reading NPCs. (Large task, I know, but I''m working up to it.)

Concerning PvP, I''m not a fan. PvP has its place in the game, but complaining about mooks and PvP terrorists will be easy in the game, and I might even make it permission based (or at least have the option available).

quote: Original post by Shelrem
With regards to your skill system, you have to make a system that''s like a pool: tough to run through, but easy enough to float by. That is, it should be very, very tough to power level, and making it a function (in part) of age would be a very good start. Make it a system of diminishing returns, so that the casual player can move maybe 1/2 as fast as the player that''s on 10 times as much. People have a tendancy to lose their lives to these games, and you have to work to make the game fun both for them and the casual gamer.

That''s why I''m implementing time-based advancement. Also, with your idea "people lose their lives to these games", I''m trying to come up with item sinks in the game. Rent-based bank boxes (because people like to collect "stuff")? Perhaps only permit in-game house purchasing? Ideas are welcome for these. I don''t want to cripple starting players, but I want to provide a balance so that powergamers don''t ruin the fun for others (also hence the aging character / character death concept).

quote: Original post by Shelrem
Remember, unless you''re charging hourly, the hardcore player uses more of your resources for the same amount of money, but the benefit is the good word of mouth and player base. The real cash comes from the casual gamer with MMORPGs when using the monthly subscription service method (i hate to bring up market forces in game design, but it''s really just a practical excuse for doing what i think is best anyway).

The rate would be perhaps free hours per month (10? 20?), then a flat rate for the remainder of the month (maybe 10$ at most). I''m not certain I will sell the game, but rather make it free for download, permit major mirroring, etc. (Although then I have to be careful about versions and patches and such.)

quote: Original post by Shelrem
It seems a fairly common desire amoung game designers to make magic or monsters or dragons or whatever very rare, but the fact is that if it''s rare the the hardcore players, then the casual gamer will never see it, and if it''s rare to the causal gamer, the hardcore gamer will be used to it, and in the case of magic, if the hardcore gamer is used to it, then the casual gamers will soon be, too. Remember, the point of games, even MMORPGs, is to be fun. If most people never see half the features, then the game better be great with just the other half (and people will still be annoyed, just ''cause there''s stuff they can''t do).

Well the games I''ve seen, people will camp in one area for a long time and wait for monsters to appear. What if the monsters randomly roamed around, or the spawn points themselves randomly roamed around? Then camping would be impossible.

The reason for making them very rare and very difficult to combat is to attempt to offer a community event if one of them appears. One warrior may not withstand such a creature, but a group of them, with healers offering prayers of protection, sorcerers conjuring up spells to battle the creature, etc.

quote: Original post by Shelrem
As an aside: the one thing that i''ve seen completely fsck''d up in every MMORPG i''ve seen since 1996 is the economy. Inflation hits and just steps all over the balance. Remember that economics is not a closed system, but it is self-regulating, in general. There should be as many outlets as sources. There should ALWAYS be stuff to buy. Shops run by NPCs and PCs alike should have dynamic pricing based on supply and demand (hell, even include a mini stock-market if you like, whatever to create a self-balancing economy).

Yeap. There needs to be item sinks. Perhaps certain items difficult or impossible to create will be commonly used. Perhaps certain items must be imported from different parts of the world (i.e. metal only available in deep mines, which are in remote locations), necessitating that players work together to gather and transport such items.

quote: Original post by Shelrem
I suggest that the way you handle opposing forces, PvP, lack of monsters, etc. in these games is to let players play both sides of the battle. If it were a Tolkienish fantasy world, let them be orcs, elves, dwarves, hobbits, and humans. Tempt them with the simple pleasures and instant-action of being an orc, or the slow but mystical powers of the elves. Let the older characters whose muscles are no longer as thick as their wallets get in to positions of power, leading armies or governing towns. The newbie looking for action should be able to fast-track by enlisting, rather than spending eternity roaming, looking for stray monsters, like most MMORPGs. This takes care of both the endless leveling seen in most games and the "what do I do" and slow starting problems of newbies. This depends on having no godlike characters or equipment, of course. A group of fairly new recruits should be able to take out even the more powerful generals, despite his years of service.

True. I want to offer political and theological motives for PvP combat, but avoid the zealous nature of immature players to driver hate-feuds based on these factors (not sure if I explained that right).

Example: When I administered a UO shard, I noted a lot of players followed the gods of war, death, and justice, and used this for the driving force of their PvP. If asked why they were violent, they would offer, "Because my chosen deity wants me to." Mindless zealouts. *ugh*

quote: Original post by Shelrem
I said i was getting back to the topic, though. So, as the maintainer of this world, sketch out a plan for the story. Very broad, no one person heroics, or if there have to be to make the game interesting, then have a game-master play it themselves. Don''t think of the game as a rollercoaster ride that many people can go on, but rather an evolving storyline that people join and leave at any time. I suggest recruiting a medium sized task force of both paid and volunteer game-masters to take on roles of varying importance to the story. Stir up some trouble and intrigue, and help out where things are getting rough. The point, though, is that you can guide the story on the epic scale, introducing plot points, devulging motives, and getting people to think, at least hopefully.

I''m not going to comment on that just yet, but I agree that having staff running the show is a great idea, rather than one person running the show.


MatrixCubed
http://MatrixCubed.org

quote: Original post by Shelrem
As an aside: the one thing that i''ve seen completely fsck''d up in every MMORPG i''ve seen since 1996 is the economy. Inflation hits and just steps all over the balance. Remember that economics is not a closed system, but it is self-regulating, in general. There should be as many outlets as sources. There should ALWAYS be stuff to buy. Shops run by NPCs and PCs alike should have dynamic pricing based on supply and demand (hell, even include a mini stock-market if you like, whatever to create a self-balancing economy).

I think the problem is, there is so much needed for a realistic economy (regional currencies, dynamic shop pricing (as in "Mordor:Depths of dejanol" - shopkeep pays less for items if he already has a lot, and charges less to purchase same if there are many), stock markets, player item manufacture, settlement leadership taxes, and services) creating a realistic economy for even a relatively small world is a huge task. Too much, most likely for a single server to handle.

Added to that lot you then have the problem that the playerbase isn''t always in the world. What would happen to a countty''s economy if, at any given time,a dozen of its major leaders, and entreprenours (Not sure if that''s the righr spelling) disappeared for a month, then reappeared, accumulated even more wealth, then disappeared again?

quote: Original post by Shelrem
With regards to your skill system [snip] Make it a system of diminishing returns, so that the casual player can move maybe 1/2 as fast as the player that''s on 10 times as much.

[snip]

This depends on having no godlike characters or equipment, of course. A group of fairly new recruits should be able to take out even the more powerful generals, despite his years of service.

Again, I think the system does need not just diminishing returns, but diminishing skill mastery if the skill isn''t used for a while.

That kind of a skill system would negate the possibility of godlike characters. There''s only so many skills a character can maintain at one given time. If they try to maintain more than a couple of dozen, they have to spend all their online time practicing, to keep any of them from degrading.

Godlike equipment would be another matter. especially if you enable players to create their own equipment (RTS style - give them the components, and the ability to enchant - let them build their own equipment), how would you stop this?

The way I see it, the easiest way would to make the equipment specialist, much likre the skills. A truly powerful piece of equipment has tremendous power, but only limited range.

For example: A "sword of Dragon-slaying +100" is created. Fine, it can slay a dragon with a single stroke, but it would be geared towards sliding between dragon scales. It would shatter against a rock creature''s armour, since all its strength would be in its offensive ability to cleave through scales, rather than its defensive ability not to shatter when it gets stopped.

quote: Original post by Shelrem
I suggest recruiting a medium sized task force of both paid and volunteer game-masters to take on roles of varying importance to the story. Stir up some trouble and intrigue, and help out where things are getting rough. The point, though, is that you can guide the story on the epic scale, introducing plot points, devulging motives, and getting people to think, at least hopefully.

That is one of the key points that A world MUST DO. Too many don''t. No MMO does, to my knowledge, and I can only think of a couple of MUDs that truly do. There are so many advantages to this approach, that it always surprises me that it is not more vigourously pursued.

Firstly, and key: Unless the admin gets involved in this way, they WILL lose touch with the desires and experiences of the playerbase. No two ways about it. Unless the admins can play the game themselves, in some role, they _WILL_ lose touch with the experience.

Secondly, players always moan when the admin makes changes. A player becomes too powerful, gains a super-strong artifact, the clan becomes too strong, has too much money, etc.

The player will get annoyed if the admin steps down from on high, and takes the ability/strength away. But, if its another player (admin in avatar) who takes the power away (Thief steals artifact/gold) then the player will complain less.

There are more advantages, but I''ll end mmy rant here,