I''ve been reading this board for some months now and have read with interest all the great ideas for non-linear, non-combat driven, dynamic player driven plot RPG''s and such. Believe me if anyone ever writes something like that I would love to try it; BUT I really doubt that anyone will and here''s some of the problems I see. So here''s my counterpoint. 1. "I want the game to be completely non-linear! Don''t make the game story driven" This means the player is going to be lost wondering what to do. This means the npc''s are going to be even more generic. It would seem you are going for emergent plot. But the best this could be is set you as a little person in a SimCity type environment and watch the world respond to your actions. Maybe its just me but that gets boring pretty quick (then again I never tried The Sims as it sounded really boring to me). Here''s my suggestion. Make the game have an overall plot but let the player have freedom in the world to explore and interact as he saw fit. Examples would be Star Control 2 and Starflight 1 & 2. You have a structure to keep the player from being lost, but still are not fenced in. Add in a bit of a dynamic world ala Pirates, but with a bit more detail. 2. "I want emergent plots with emergent solutions!" Sounds good, but how can it be done? Read the post mortem for Deus Ex (awesome game BTW). They scripted the quests, and attempted emergent solutions from the game system. It didn''t work. They had to manually put in the different solutions to the different obstacles. Well, I''m tired so that''s enough for to night. I look forward to reading why I''m wrong Jack

[sorry mate, no posting for you in this forum anymore]

Edited by - MadKeithV on March 7, 2001 4:05:35 AM

[see above]

Edited by - MadKeithV on March 7, 2001 4:06:09 AM

quote: Original post by JackNathan

1. "I want the game to be completely non-linear! Don''t make the game story driven"

This means the player is going to be lost wondering what to do. This means the npc''s are going to be even more generic. It would seem you are going for emergent plot. But the best this could be is set you as a little person in a SimCity type environment and watch the world respond to your actions. Maybe its just me but that gets boring pretty quick (then again I never tried The Sims as it sounded really boring to me).

Well, Wavinator once made the observation that some people want to get lost in the environment and not to have the game instruct them as to what to do. These people want to have their own goals, not having the game tell them what their goals will be.

Others want solid goals to direct them. It''s just a matter of opinion really.




Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.
What a plight we who try to make a story-based game have...writers of conventional media have words, we have but binary numbers

hey that would be annoying you would just walk around and kill stuff....wow....it just sounds really boring


here a situation ( you talking to some friends at school about this game your all obsessed with. so your talking about it and you go "yea yesterday i was playing and i ...uh....ummm......just kinda walked around...cool huh!

Bleh bad game idea.

Hey JackNathan. I appreciate the insight. Since I''m really dedicated to this idea, let me provide a rebuttal:

quote: Original post by JackNathan

1. "I want the game to be completely non-linear! Don''t make the game story driven"

This means the player is going to be lost wondering what to do.

Have you ever played Civilization, or Starcraft multiplayer / skirmish, or Elite, or X-Com? All non-linear game experiences, yet somehow players were able to figure out what to do.

What is it that an RPG lacks that these games have? Why isn''t it possible to be independent in an RPG?

I''d say for no other reason than design.

quote:
This means the npc''s are going to be even more generic.

What about non-linearity stops you from having weird, interesting, and quirky characters? There''s nothing stopping you from making them pre-defined.

It depends on how deeply you want to get into random construction of things.

quote:
It would seem you are going for emergent plot. But the best this could be is set you as a little person in a SimCity type environment and watch the world respond to your actions.

Why do you play games? I play games to experience an awesome environment that I can affect and be a part of. In them, I want to do stuff, and I want it to matter.

For example, when I play Fallout I want the world to respond really respond to my character. I want the landscape to affect me. I want to be able to make intelligent choices and feel as if I was actually using my wits to survive in a bleak and dangerous world.

If you play to essentially be read to, non-linear games are not for you. Shenmue, or the later Final Fantasy instead are.

quote:
Maybe its just me but that gets boring pretty quick (then again I never tried The Sims as it sounded really boring to me).

The Sims bore the heck out of me because they''re too pedestrian. I want experiences that are about spies and gunslingers and starpilots, not about some dude watching TV.

quote:
Here''s my suggestion. Make the game have an overall plot but let the player have freedom in the world to explore and interact as he saw fit. Examples would be Star Control 2 and Starflight 1 & 2. You have a structure to keep the player from being lost, but still are not fenced in. Add in a bit of a dynamic world ala Pirates, but with a bit more detail.

If I pull this off, it''ll be a cross between Master of Orion and a space version of Pirates!

Let''s take Star Control 2 and the Starflights (my absolute *FAVORITE* games, btw) and look at what created plot: The interaction between factions over time.

Think about the Star Control and Starflight universes for a sec. Imagine if the "story so far" was the result of running the races through a Master of Orion type strategy game.

You''d get different stories, then, right? If you kept the *same* level of interaction, *same* type of gameplay, then do you think fans of these games would object?

quote:
2. "I want emergent plots with emergent solutions!"

Sounds good, but how can it be done? Read the post mortem for Deus Ex (awesome game BTW). They scripted the quests, and attempted emergent solutions from the game system. It didn''t work. They had to manually put in the different solutions to the different obstacles.

Hmmm... well, I''m not tackling this one, so I can''t say much about it. I believe in the power of combinations providing a richer subset than the parts would imply, but I still see this as a known range. Mission generation, for example, would be made up of mission pieces that you could mix and match-- but you''d still complete them using a limited subset of predefined actions.

I will say, though, that anything emergent is going to run headlong into what you expect to experience in a game.

For example, one of the foreseable side-effects of the "emergent empires that create plot" idea that I''m working on now is imbalance. You typically expect a balanced experience. So I''ve had to both manage player''s expections ("don''t try to win this game, that''s not what it''s about") and counteract loss.

quote:
I look forward to reading why I''m wrong

You may not be. There''s a reason why these ideas haven''t been tried, and odds are likely that it''s not just because a few of us in the group are Wile E. Coyote Supergeniuses. Only time will tell.



--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Wavinator

You may not be. There's a reason why these ideas haven't been tried, and odds are likely that it's not just because a few of us in the group are Wile E. Coyote Supergeniuses. Only time will tell.
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

yes, but we have to pretend that it's because they're spending all their development time on graphics and have strict deadlines and we as "indies" have all the development time we want giving us time to develop such things as these.



Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.
What a plight we who try to make a story-based game have...writers of conventional media have words, we have but binary numbers


Edited by - Nazrix on March 7, 2001 1:47:23 AM

Ok, I can see a fun game experiencing life as these empires clash around you. But with a random and dynamic universe NPC''s would be hard pressed to act very intelligently. Sheer amount of dialog to keep it from getting repetitive would be a problem, too.

>>>>
Why do you play games? I play games to experience an awesome environment that I can affect and be a part of. In them, I want to do stuff, and I want it to matter.

For example, when I play Fallout I want the world to respond really respond to my character. I want the landscape to affect me. I want to be able to make intelligent choices and feel as if I was actually using my wits to survive in a bleak and dangerous world.

If you play to essentially be read to, non-linear games are not for you. Shenmue, or the later Final Fantasy instead are.
>>>>

Well, actually I really do like Final Fantasy games I also like Fallout, and I agree a more dynamic world would be great, but I would like it in the confines of the story. The advantage of relatively linear gameplay is more interesting NPC''s. I like character based games, shows, books, etc. i.e. Orson Scott Card I mean compare Aeris to any of the NPC''s in the more open Fallout. Goris and Marcus was cool, but nothing like the NPC''s in FF.

>>>>
If I pull this off, it''ll be a cross between Master of Orion and a space version of Pirates!

Let''s take Star Control 2 and the Starflights (my absolute *FAVORITE* games, btw) and look at what created plot: The interaction between factions over time.

Think about the Star Control and Starflight universes for a sec. Imagine if the "story so far" was the result of running the races through a Master of Orion type strategy game.

You''d get different stories, then, right? If you kept the *same* level of interaction, *same* type of gameplay, then do you think fans of these games would object?
>>>>

Ok, I''d like a cross between Pirates and MOO. But again that could make your NPC''s dialog be like the diplomacy dialogs in MOO.

>>>>
For example, one of the foreseable side-effects of the "emergent empires that create plot" idea that I''m working on now is imbalance. You typically expect a balanced experience. So I''ve had to both manage player''s expections ("don''t try to win this game, that''s not what it''s about") and counteract loss.
>>>>

Well actually, even without NPC''s this could be fun. Your goal could be to help whatever side you wanted however you wants i.e. trade, gun running, fighting.


Jack

Ack, forgot to sign in, previous post was by me.

Jack