Sick of these posts yet? The Game: A 3D isometric science fiction RPG where you adventure in a starship The Idea: Players can gamble to invent new devices and weapons The Details: The core idea is simple: In addition to buying new, more powerful modules, players can research them via the Commercial Research Lab. The Commercial Research Lab would be a special facility found only in some star systems. Using it players could increase the stats of devices, and invent new ones. They could increase the damage of weapons, extend the range of sensor, and create weird new modules. Each Research Project would involve a certain cost, amount of time, and risk. The risk would work like a Critical Hit combat system: Sometimes the researchers would hit the mark, and sometimes fail disasterously, and sometimes have wild success. There would be no refunds, however, so players would be making a gamble. Research Projects The Research Project would be a game object. It could be bartered, sold, hidden, and manufactured. In some cases, the project could be stolen. Enemy empires might hunt the player if they knew he had a certain Research Project. To Prototype or Not To...? Another gameplay phase that might be fun would be once the new device was manufactured: The first time it was created, it would be more expensive (up to +50% more). The more advanced the Proto, the higher the chance that it would have side effects / bugs. The player could pay to have it tested. Tested modules would have no side effects. Untested modules might have side effects or be defect free. Side effects would range from a harmless shutdown to disasterous system damage. Implementation Detail Stats for devices would be generic. The initial limts would be determined by the tech level of the empire the player starts in. By researching or stealing technology, the player could increase the caps on the stats. Device stats would be things like: Minimum Range Maximum Range Size Cost - Increase for greater capability, decrease for space savings Resource Required - What it burns / uses Cost Per Use - How much per use / shot Intensity / Damage - Strength of the effect or amount of damage Affect Type - What it affects (hit points, shields, communications, etc) Who Type - Affects self, other, or both Recharge Rate / Delay - Time it takes to reuse Effect Region Type - Effect is a Sphere, Cone, Line, Point Looking for others... Comments appreciated. -------------------- Just waiting for the mothership... Edited by - Wavinator on February 2, 2001 7:31:26 PM

quote: Original post by Wavinator

Sick of these posts yet?

Nope

quote: The core idea is simple: In addition to buying new, more powerful modules, players can research them via the Commercial Research Lab.

You listened to us! 8)

quote: The Research Project would be a game object. It could be bartered, sold, hidden, and manufactured. In some cases, the project could be stolen. Enemy empires might hunt the player if they knew he had a certain Research Project.

Technological Theory being a commodity, then?

quote: Another gameplay phase that might be fun would be once the new device was manufactured: The first time it was created, it would be more expensive (up to +50% more). The more advanced the Proto, the higher the chance that it would have side effects / bugs.

The player could pay to have it tested. Tested modules would have no side effects. Untested modules might have side effects or be defect free. Side effects would range from a harmless shutdown to disasterous system damage.

Like the (S) mark. I like this. "Here shoot yourself with this and tell me how much it hurts... I''m too much of a wimp, but I''m really rich..."

quote: Stats for devices would be generic. The initial limts would be determined by the tech level of the empire the player starts in. By researching or stealing technology, the player could increase the caps on the stats.

Very nice. Can''t think of much else, save things like side-effects, or having to disable certain things before use (eg shields or cloaking device).

Keep it up. I like these talks 8)


"NPCs will be inherited from the basic Entity class. They will be fully independent, and carry out their own lives oblivious to the world around them ... that is, until you set them on fire ..."

Radiation generated. (Heat/light/magnetic/whatever. Affects detection maybe.)
Weight (unless size and resource req''d takes care of that)


I''m curious to hear how you plan on doing "weird new modules".

quote: Original post by morfe
You listened to us! 8)

I can not afford to ignore wisdom!

quote: Technological Theory being a commodity, then?

Yes. Since the game has empires fighting it out in the background, this might be a great way of giving the player input into that struggle without fighting it directly. You could be the Rosenbergs, for instance: responsible for giving the Soviets the bomb.

This might be a good way to feel personally involved in the struggle.

quote: Like the (S) mark. I like this. "Here shoot yourself with this and tell me how much it hurts... I''m too much of a wimp, but I''m really rich..."

Exactly. And it makes it convenient for those players that don''t want to bother with the experimentation phase.

quote: Very nice. Can''t think of much else, save things like side-effects, or having to disable certain things before use (eg shields or cloaking device).

Thanks. I didn''t think of device tradeoffs. Will add!

quote:
Keep it up. I like these talks 8)

Thanks! The encouragement is very helpful!



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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by kseh

Radiation generated. (Heat/light/magnetic/whatever. Affects detection maybe.)
Weight (unless size and resource req''d takes care of that)

Very good. Energy output and types will be added, as well as mass (which is crucial for stealth and gravitic detectors, so it''s another nice tradeoff)

quote:
I''m curious to hear how you plan on doing "weird new modules".

Well, this is currently only theory, but here''s the plan:

There will be pregenerated modules already available to the player. These modules are mini-finite state machines that are driven by certain variables (inputs) and produce certain effects / abilities (outputs). Example: Shields suck up energy and produce a damage absorbing effect.

The idea, then, is to give the player an easy to understand method for creating a new FSM by combining the behaviors of other FSMs.

Let''s say we want the galaxy''s first damage dealing cloak shield. (Strange, but let''s say we plan to ram all our enemies). So in making the new FSM we somehow combine the effects of the contact damage, regenerative shield, and cloak FSM. I think I know how to build a run-time FSM, or go with some sort of hierarchical FSM to get this to work.

You''d only be able to create from existing parts, of course, but if there are enough parts then the combinatorial effect combined with the ability to tweak the stats of existing FSMs could make this VERY interesting.

Implementation aside, one major problem I have not solved is how to counter the unbalancing effect this has. If the player creates a Ramming Shield Cloak, and it''s exremely effective, the game has to eventually adapt to neutralize this. Otherwise the player is unchallenged.

One thought is simply to have the AI copycat the player, but that''s not good enough. I''m trying to see if I can devise an Achille''s Heel table, so that when the player comes up with the Ramming Shield Cloak that no other empire has, empires respond with improved sensors or energy absorbant hulls or whatever (rock-sissors-paper).

I think this will work if the player can count on how adaptive empires are, and thus strategically ration the use of his new special device.


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Just waiting for the mothership...

The ideas are valid, but i think they are better suited for a turn based strategy game. Not to say the whole concept is wrong, but those Commerical Research Labs seem a bit corny in an RPG, it needs to be something where the gamble element is not so blatantly obvious, but instead coated in a nice story.

The thing I hate about so many RPGs is their formulaic (sp) nature, basing themselves on arcade games where there are several types of objects in this world, and each object has a different affect on the player when he/she interacts with it. For example, those blue thingies are energy re-chargers, that green thing is a switch, that red thing a key, etc. That''s great for arcade games, not so great for an RPG, where it is important to have a convincing and deep world. A research lab of some sort in ONE area of the game might be cool, but placing them everywhere and thus making them generic things keeps the RPG dull and turns it into a fighter game with complex stats. Every location in an RPG must be different, reflecting the real world. Heck, not even McDonald''s restaurants all look the same.

There should be many ways of getting food/stats/powerups/whatever in the game, some of them obvious, some of the not, but none should become the method that is only used, with the rest of the methods being gimmicks. A good example of this is irionically in an RTS, specifically Age of Empires, where there''s at least 10 possible ways of attaining food (keep in mind this is an RTS, so 10 ways is equal to like 50 in RPG ratios). All of the ways of obtaining food were not only useful, but it was necessary to use an assortment of them to win the battle, since not a single source was enuff to feed ur army. Excellently balanced, that food part. A generic reserach lab on more than one planet is rather repetitive. There can certainly be a spaceship repair and general airport on each civilized planet, just like u would expect a food establishment to be everywhere. Basically im saying don''t fall into the trap of not having enough depth, the player should never get a deja vu feeling.

quote: Original post by LordElectro

The ideas are valid, but i think they are better suited for a turn based strategy game. Not to say the whole concept is wrong, but those Commerical Research Labs seem a bit corny in an RPG, it needs to be something where the gamble element is not so blatantly obvious, but instead coated in a nice story.

Thanks for the input LE. Unfortunately, I have a problem: I have NO story.

The game instead takes place in a non-linear and constantly changing environment. The non-linear approach reproduces some of the benefits of story w/o the lack of replay value that curses many CRPGs. It is what I call a Role-Playing Empire Game, with shades of Pirates!, Escape Velocity, and Starflight. It has some arcade elements, some strategy elements, and hopefully a ton of role-playing.

It''s just been easier to call it an RPG.

quote:
The thing I hate about so many RPGs is their formulaic (sp) nature, basing themselves on arcade games where there are several types of objects in this world, and each object has a different affect on the player when he/she interacts with it.

Facilities like the Commercial Research Lab won''t be available everywhere. They require an empire with an appropriate development level and a Free Market economy. You will only find them on prosperous colonies with shipyards. So if you''re a private citizen you won''t find them in an autocracy or hive collective civilization, and you won''t find them among poor empires.

Each CRL will have a quality / capability slightly below the empire''s tech level (so you can''t compete with the military). They can only create what the empire knows about, so if you want a cloaking device you''ll have to visit or steal from the Romulans. Additionally, some places will have black market Labs, but they may not be trustworthy and will charge through the nose (but could get you military grade hardware).

quote:
For example, those blue thingies are energy re-chargers, that green thing is a switch, that red thing a key, etc. That''s great for arcade games, not so great for an RPG, where it is important to have a convincing and deep world.

But don''t you think the idea of a commercial engineers is realistic? We have them today, and if you have the cash they''ll design anything we know how to build (that''s legal, anyway).

quote:
Basically im saying don''t fall into the trap of not having enough depth, the player should never get a deja vu feeling.

Thank you. I totally agree. One thing, though, that I''m trying to focus on is making the state of the world more important than what is in the world. For example: If you trade between port A & B, you''re more concerned with what A & B are trading, the level of pirate activity, and political / military relationship between the two (all of which can change) than you are it what unique facilities they have. They are made special by what''s happening there, which makes the facilities fade into the background a bit.

(I think, anyway. I could be wrong about this, so I appreciate the input! )

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Just waiting for the mothership...

Whatever ur making sounds pretty cool, but it is definitely not an RPG. So far all the elements your naming sound like a strategy game of some sort, a damn cool one at that. The commerical labs make more sense then, as does piracy monitoring and stuff. In that case i would build a complex city development AI if i were u, so each city would be different each time, and its development would be based on a whole universe economy. Now that would be cool. Don''t just plop down a lab or whatever because the population is so high.

quote: Original post by LordElectro

Whatever ur making sounds pretty cool,

Thanks!

quote:
but it is definitely not an RPG.

Uh oh...

quote:
So far all the elements your naming sound like a strategy game of some sort, a damn cool one at that. The commerical labs make more sense then, as does piracy monitoring and stuff. In that case i would build a complex city development AI if i were u, so each city would be different each time, and its development would be based on a whole universe economy. Now that would be cool. Don''t just plop down a lab or whatever because the population is so high.

I''m still working out the bugs, but I''m right in line with your thinking. I am aiming for a universe that the player can understand, and thus affect logically. For a non-linear game universe, if story doesn''t guide you then it is vital that you be given enough information to plan!

There are definitely a lot of strategy elements, but there are RPG elements, too: Ship and crew advancement, quests, character conversation, and shopping (if there''s shopping, it''s gotta be an RPG, right? )



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Just waiting for the mothership...

State machines... hmm, that got the ol'' imagination going.

So, if I were to combine the effects of a cloak and my communications system I get a more stealthy form of communication. Certainly something that someone else might think of. How about combining my communications system with my regenerative shields to get a... um, just what would you get? Just thinking that it might be tough to assure weaknesses for all possible combinations