i think i good game designer has to be well rounded in every aspect.

Programming - from basic understanding of programming limitations (like for instance, i just came up with a new idea for a menu system for our game, and told my programmers the basic ideas for programming what i had in my head)

Artistic - a good game designer should be able to sketch mock-ups of his ideas, so the idea is clear and concise.

Engineering - You have to make everything fit together well, and look like a complete package, and not a texas chainsaw massacre knitted corpse. Also how to make things flow, so some new features doesn''t intrude on others.

Persuasive - you have to know how to get people interested in what you''re doing, and what you ahve envisioned. Get them excited about it.. and keep them there.

Marketing - you have to know what is going to sell, and what is not. no sense in spending hundreds of hours on something to have it rot somewhere cuz it''s not fun to play.

Music - you have to have a good idea of how something should sound. And how to get your musicans (or get yourself if you are the lead musician) to make exactly what you have in your head.

and finally

Communication - you simply HAVE to be able to communicate well. and give examples in many different forms.. not everyone thinks like you do.. and you have to be able to describe things from many different angles.. depending on who you are talking to.






digital euphoria software

quote: Original post by Drew

Just to be picky, System Shock 2 was designed and developed by Irrational Games, not Looking Glass. SS2 just utilised the Theif engine and got some funding from LG for the project.

Doh! Right, my bad... (I even remember seeing the logo & theme at startup...)

quote:
Game Designer
Irrational Games

Not to be too intrusive, but do my observations about how the industry treats designers still hold true? I worked at Broderbund / Mindscape a few years ago, and it seemed that until you were established the pay was pretty low and the positions difficult to acquire unless you filled some other function in the company. Or has that changed?



--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Wow! I didn''t think this forum could get this far! So you all mean there isn''t a game designing work? So I''ve gotta be a programmer? Well, I like both, anyway!

import money.*;
#include
uses bucks;

quote: Original post by ragonastick

--anon---
game design is not one bit about programming. However companies don't hire designers, they promote programmers to designers. So you have to become a programmer first if you want to become a designer.
---------

Most programmers (including myself) cannot design for #@%^. And if they can, then I bet they can't program

There are so many people who think they can design when they can't, and it is starting to annoyme now.

(end of mild rant)

This is starting to get a bit stupid. Computer game design is all about programming. Sorry, but it's true. You're not going to get any game made if you don't understand the limitations of the system. Just look at the difference between someone who writes novels and someone who writes screenplays: many shared skills, but many different ones too. You -have- to understand your medium. You have to understand -why- you cannot have a 4000-person battle onscreen to aid your storyline. You have to understand -why- it is not feasible to have conversations with NPCs where you talk down a microphone into the computer and it responds intelligently. Just as you cannot be ignorant of cinematography if you want to be a director or screenplay writer, you cannot be ignorant of programming if you want to be a game designer. Design involves assembling pieces to form a complete system. You can't do a damn thing if you don't understand the pieces.

And why is everyone bigoted about the whole programmer/designer divide? Sure, there are several crap games out there that lack clear designer influence, but that's not because programmers think they are better designers than they really are, or anything like that. It is largely down to economic pressures, and the simple fact that 0 programmer + 1 designer = 0 profit, while 1 programmer + 0 designer = 1 profit. (The profit figures are upper bounds, by the way.)

The best designers are those who appreciate the programming side, and have a good understanding of making systems work. Sid Meier is one great programmer who turned designer. Peter Molyneux from Bullfrog/Lionhead is another. (Quote regarding Black and White: "I am the person responsible for the overall design, but I am not the designer, the whole team designs.I'm also programming the Villager AI. ") David Braben who worked on Elite, perhaps one of the classic games of all time, is another designer-programmer. etc etc. If you think that being a designer is nothing to do with programming, then go right ahead. But I won't expect anything good from you...

To repeat, for Rockslave's benefit: no, you do not have to be a programmer. Yes, it would help you immensely, as you need to understand it.

Edited by - Kylotan on January 4, 2001 9:58:26 AM

yes of course you have to understand programming issues to be a good designer. So does an artist, and pretty much everyone else on the team. As for actual coding though, the designer is not responsible for it (he might also program, but that just means he is doing two jobs, not that the two are intrinsicly linked).

The ''game designer'' term is really 2 positions.

1. Concept/guru/idear guy
Have to make tech insight to know what is possible and how hard an idear will be to implement. Have to be creative and be able to think very abtract. Needs to be able to communicate his idears to the rest of the game team.

2. game manager
Traditional IT-project leader stills needed. (leader ship, control ect)

Usually the game designer is either 1 or 2 - or somewhere in between.

It''s not as clear-cut as that last post makes out. Essentially, the 1st description, ''Game Designer as Idea-Guy'' is a job that only really exists in the wishful thinking of some of the people who post on these forums... and your 2nd description is more what is called a Project Manager or Producer in most game companies.

So I would say it''s more inbetween. A Designer works at a higher level than the Programmers and Artists but at a lower level than the Producer. Being at this higher level means understanding all the levels below with a reasonable level of competence. This is why good programmers often make good designers. All I am saying, is that a designer who thinks they can just have ideas instead of taking a little time to understand implementation issues will get nowhere.

"Not to be too intrusive, but do my observations about how the industry treats designers still hold true? I worked at Broderbund / Mindscape a few years ago, and it seemed that until you were established the pay was pretty low and the positions difficult to acquire unless you filled some other function in the company. Or has that changed?"

hmmm, somewhat. When we look at hiring designers (that havent had strong previous industry experience) we also look at what other skills they have. Could they slot into an assistant producer role? Could they do tools programming? This isnt because we want to get twice the work for half the money, its because we dont want to hire them on, find out they cant design a wooden pole, and then have to get rid of them and waste the money we spent relocating them etc etc etc. However, if they have had previous industry experience, then we are more willing to take a risk on them.

As for the whole designer/programmer argument. Yes, there are some very strong "designers" out there who are also programmers. Thats a pretty rare thing though. Think about the term "programmer art". Everyone knows what it means, it means that in general, programmers dont tend to be very creative in the manner req''d to be a designer (I can tell Im in for a flaming here, but just hear me out before you hit reply!). Certainly programmers can be extraordinarily creative in a programming perspective. They can design incredible algorithms that make that AI run 20% faster. But ask them to come up with a concept for a game, or to design a mission, and they stare blankly at you There is a big difference in being a programmer and being a designer. Yes, its very important for a designer to have an understanding of code and the capabilities of a computer, but its also just as important for them to have an understanding of art, and how colours can affect mood. not to mention sound and how that can be utilised to generate an emotive response in the player. Does the designer need to be an expert in all of these things and be able to do it all themselves? No, thats why development teams are "teams" and not a sole entity. There are times I want to design a character, but Ill need to go chat with the artists to get a feel for how they think he should actually look. ill need to chat with the programmers to see if super power X will actually work with our specced out particle generation system. I dont need to know exactly how the system is coded, I just need to know who to speak to when I have a question.

Phew, thats an essay. Actually, this kind of topic is something Ive been thinking about writing an "article" for. If anyones interested (gamedev.net guys??) swing me an email and Ill see what I can put together.

Anyways to conclude (finally! ). A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design.




Drew "remnant" Chambers
Game Designer
Irrational Games

quote: By Drew
A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design.

I''ve been looking to change my profile sig. I hope you don''t mind if i quote you on that Drew? I think that (to the extent i''d argue it) pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Eco Terrorist - a name given to people who work in favor of the environment. Very interesting yes?

Wow, thanx again guys! That''s what it''ll be! I think I''ll learn programming until I get a degree in something, like computer science, and since I''m 14 I''ll have sooo much time to learn. Than, I''ll look for some work. Like a programmer. Nice, this forums has changed my life flow!(Just kiddin'' I was already thinking it would be like that). Uh, anyway, do anyone no how to write this "<" symbol in the profile signature so that HTML won''t disable it?

import money.*;
#include "cas.h"
uses bucks;