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RPGs, NPCs, and plots like in the movies
Author
(first a bit of background)
the game I''m designing is a fantasy RPG (Medivel...) that has a rather advanced AI. (I''ll have to make a site about the concepts somewhere because it''s almost impossible to explain in pure text...)
Anyway, after realizing some of the things the AI *should* be able to do, I came up with a great idea...
What if the game had NO scripted plot to it. Worlds were generated by something resembling a fractal. I call it a "conflict tree." This tree starts with a generic root node and the splits for conficts.
Starting out with getting into things like contries that hate each other, then City rivalries, then guild wars, then family feuds, then people. Basically starting out with big groups, then getting smaller and smaller etc...
Then, the game, used the tree to refine the personalities of all the NPCs. and would create a world using a seed, then place the people logically. (versus randomly which would plop evil blood-crazed goblins (hehe) in the middle of a city...)
This way, players of the game would only have to download the tree (versus the whole game world...VERY big file...)
AND, the game world is dynamic.
Thoughts?
Author
I'm aiming at single-player only or a small multi-player. (say... 8? 10? 12?) And I'm also debating whether it could be real-time or not... The AI is big and probably will be slow too... does a turn-based where everyone has 30 seconds to make their move sound playable?
I assume by dialog you mean NPC communication, Sirus?. it's actually fairly simple: the game has to store information in a format, so I took that and added a few abstract messaging flags and in theory (I'm not programming anything yet.) it should work great. (It's converted to the common tounge (or some other language for that matter, say... "elvish?") by a database of the message "types" that adds in the nouns. The messaging commands I use are in the form of: command(.variable etc...) (noun etc...)
and the database has another qualifier. language.
so in the data base there would be, for a question asking age, something like:
Old_English Query_Var.age "Of how many years art thou?"
Mid_English Query_Var.age "Of what age do ye be?"
Mod_English Query_Var.age "How old are you?"
And there can be multipule ones for each:
Old_English Query_Var.age "Of how many years art thou?"
Old_English Query_Var.age "How old art thee?"
And the game would pick a random one. Then the response would be say: Reply_Var.age 23
Old_English Reply_Var.age 1 "I amthst %1% years of age."
Old_English Reply_var.age 1 "I amthst $1$ years of age."
the first would be: "I amthst 23 years of age."
the second: "I amthst twenty-three years of age."
Hope that's all you wanted to know. Now back on target...
Does the 'localy-generated world' idea sound good?
Is 'amthst' a word?
this could be a cool sig...
Edited by - C-Junkie on August 21, 2000 12:23:22 PM
I assume by dialog you mean NPC communication, Sirus?. it's actually fairly simple: the game has to store information in a format, so I took that and added a few abstract messaging flags and in theory (I'm not programming anything yet.) it should work great. (It's converted to the common tounge (or some other language for that matter, say... "elvish?") by a database of the message "types" that adds in the nouns. The messaging commands I use are in the form of: command(.variable etc...) (noun etc...)
and the database has another qualifier. language.
so in the data base there would be, for a question asking age, something like:
Old_English Query_Var.age "Of how many years art thou?"
Mid_English Query_Var.age "Of what age do ye be?"
Mod_English Query_Var.age "How old are you?"
And there can be multipule ones for each:
Old_English Query_Var.age "Of how many years art thou?"
Old_English Query_Var.age "How old art thee?"
And the game would pick a random one. Then the response would be say: Reply_Var.age 23
Old_English Reply_Var.age 1 "I amthst %1% years of age."
Old_English Reply_var.age 1 "I amthst $1$ years of age."
the first would be: "I amthst 23 years of age."
the second: "I amthst twenty-three years of age."
Hope that's all you wanted to know. Now back on target...
Does the 'localy-generated world' idea sound good?
Is 'amthst' a word?
this could be a cool sig...
Edited by - C-Junkie on August 21, 2000 12:23:22 PM
quote: Original post by Sirius
So what do you do for dialogue?
-Sirius
This raises an interesting question. Without prescripted content this implies that the AI has to generate the dialog. What I mean is that if the AI is creating the quests, and the quests have some backstory and story relevant to the game world, then that material has to come from the AI somehow.
An interesting analysis problem...
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Just waiting for the mothership...
quote: Original post by C-Junkie
What if the game had NO scripted plot to it. Worlds were generated by something resembling a fractal. I call it a "conflict tree." This tree starts with a generic root node and the splits for conficts.
Starting out with getting into things like contries that hate each other, then City rivalries, then guild wars, then family feuds, then people. Basically starting out with big groups, then getting smaller and smaller etc...
Hey, I''m not using the idea of a conflict tree, but I''m working on something similar (sci-fi RPG with random empires and factions that change the game world). (I''ve been making a couple of posts, BTW, over the last few days that you may find interesting.)
quote:
Then, the game, used the tree to refine the personalities of all the NPCs. and would create a world using a seed, then place the people logically. (versus randomly which would plop evil blood-crazed goblins (hehe) in the middle of a city...)
How come those goblins couldn''t be in the middle of the city?
Maybe hiding in the sewers? Ready to capture the king''s daughter? quote:
This way, players of the game would only have to download the tree (versus the whole game world...VERY big file...)
This sounds like a good idea, especially if you''re aiming for shareware distribution.
quote:
AND, the game world is dynamic.
For me, making this all dynamic is going to be the real trick. How deep and detailed the AI is is going to be a critical point. Now, the AI for your average game isn''t much to right home about, because AI is a difficult problem to solve.
I''m trying to attack the problem with a lot of smoke and mirrors. Random "dice" rolls for effects and changes in the game world seem like they will work. Have you thought at all about what the player''s experience is going to be in all of this? How will you make gameplay consistent? Control the characters progress? Lots of questions I could ask, as I''m knee deep in this myself.
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Just waiting for the mothership...
Author
about Wavinator''s first post:
Dialog is a function of the NPC''s desire to exchange information, or not to exchange information as the case may be. Query''s are sent to a "locally public" messaging list (so people can eaves-drop ) when the NPC''s AI determines that this person knows something that "I" should know.
However, this would be a bit boring. So, does anybody have an idea about how to add some more interesting things like humor or something?
Anyway, Control the character''s progress? (heh heh, this is one of my favorite features...) There IS no control. The character could end up as a diety for all the game cares. The character is no different from any other NPC. He/she could become a shopkeeper, king, merchant, adventurer, high priest, etc.
Total Freedom. Never seen a computer game like that before have you?
The character basically chooses some things about the kind of character he/she wants then the game (race, STARTING alignment becuse I''m adopting a system where what you do determines your alignment, etc.), and a few skills in the directions of conventional, spiritual, magical. (conventional is theif,fight,etc. Spiritual is cleric,etc. MAgical is wizards, etc.) and based on your decisions the game will tell you what "class" you look most like. (but there is no classes )
N E way, so the conflict tree sounds like something "doable", Eh?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Is 'amthst' a word?
What is the meaning of an NPC's life? simple-
"To make the player have fun by dieing horribly you %$^@ goblin! ESCALATE GOBLIN GENOCIDE!"
Dialog is a function of the NPC''s desire to exchange information, or not to exchange information as the case may be. Query''s are sent to a "locally public" messaging list (so people can eaves-drop
) when the NPC''s AI determines that this person knows something that "I" should know.However, this would be a bit boring. So, does anybody have an idea about how to add some more interesting things like humor or something?
Anyway, Control the character''s progress? (heh heh, this is one of my favorite features...) There IS no control. The character could end up as a diety for all the game cares. The character is no different from any other NPC. He/she could become a shopkeeper, king, merchant, adventurer, high priest, etc.
Total Freedom. Never seen a computer game like that before have you?
The character basically chooses some things about the kind of character he/she wants then the game (race, STARTING alignment becuse I''m adopting a system where what you do determines your alignment, etc.), and a few skills in the directions of conventional, spiritual, magical. (conventional is theif,fight,etc. Spiritual is cleric,etc. MAgical is wizards, etc.) and based on your decisions the game will tell you what "class" you look most like. (but there is no classes
)N E way, so the conflict tree sounds like something "doable", Eh?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Is 'amthst' a word?
What is the meaning of an NPC's life? simple-
"To make the player have fun by dieing horribly you %$^@ goblin! ESCALATE GOBLIN GENOCIDE!"
Author
quote: Original post by Wavinator
How come those goblins couldn''t be in the middle of the city?
I meant living in the middle of the city. They are logically placed. Goblins COULD logically be hiding in the sewers. Makes the game a bit more interesting doesn''t it?
It should also be really fun because (say you''re a high-elf with a lifespan of 2000 years) offspring LEARN prejudices. Throw in everyone hating goblins, ogres, and trolls and you get a good long lasting game.
The primary reason for the trees by the way isn''t for shareware. It''s for dynamic worlds that could be downloaded.
btw, just a clarification from earlier. The AI uses an NPC''s personality, instincts, and memory for determining action. Personality has perjudices and things that allow for an interesting game. Instinct have things that try to keep the NPC alive. And, Memory has schedules and things to keep the game realistic.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Is 'amthst' a word?
What is the meaning of an NPC's life? simple-
"To make the player have fun by dieing horribly you %$^@ goblin! ESCALATE GOBLIN GENOCIDE!"
Using fractals would make the world construction a lot more of a remote task for the Designers. Maybe it would be a better Back-Office Tool rather than using it in the game?! Then you can add all the dialog etc in afterwards.
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
quote: Original post by C-Junkie
Anyway, Control the character''s progress? (heh heh, this is one of my favorite features...) There IS no control. The character could end up as a diety for all the game cares. The character is no different from any other NPC. He/she could become a shopkeeper, king, merchant, adventurer, high priest, etc.
Total Freedom. Never seen a computer game like that before have you?
Hey, I like this. It means I''m not the only one who''s insane on this board.
(Sorry, C-Junkie, couldn''t resist ).Under Total Freedom(tm), what you do for game activities becomes very interesting. Forget coding for a second. The range of actions the player can take becomes an issue. Of course, it all depends on how deeply these roles are played out. As a shopkeeper, can you get credit to start a new business? Can you hire staff? Is there a market to expand into? Competition? Can you streamline and innovate your business?
Or take being a king. Is there court intrigue? Army movement and management? International conflict? Empire building? Population problems, riots, social issues, technological or magical progress?
A diety is even more tricky? Raise volcanoes? War with other gods? Compete for the faithful? Change the game physics?
Roles that are only titles may not be satisfying. Yet Total Freedom implies that you can take any role and play it to the hilt. Doctor, shaman, prostitute, inventor, etc...
Please don''t take this as a slam. I''m right with ya. My science fiction RPG appears to be calling for elements of RTS, RPG, empire building, and sim games. I''ve gone in to trim the fat a dozen times, and am still left with a game that, if not managed correctly, is going to be abandonware in short order.
Even without knowing too much detail, I''d say what you propose is daunting yet nevertheless doable. But you''re going to have to be damned clever about some of your design decisions. What are the common elements of the different roles? What gameplay elements are scalable? How will you make each one interesting and worthwhile to play...
Sorry, don''t mean to lecture, it''s just that I''ve been there myself and would''ve appreciated someone talking it out...
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Just waiting for the mothership...
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