I think it''s more how much the game and the plot revolve around the rape than how long the scene in the game lasts. If everything the character does afterwards is based on this one scene i.e. the storyline follows on to how the character acts afterwards/gets their revenge, then it could qualify as being central to the plot.
If it''s only a small part of the overall plot then it''s less important.
Mike
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Morality in Game Design
I don''t think we are yet at the stage where games are really going to corrupt people that much. Soldier of fortune was mentioned and I think that shows the direction games are going in. What will happen when as someone said we can''t distinguish between games and reality. Think of soldier of fortune XXII set in the equivalent of the holo deck in star trek where you gat an exact replica of killing someone which seems totally real. The question is what type of people would enjoy doing that or by that time will too much FPS playing have desensitised us all into enjoying it. I hope not.
On the political side of things if gaming is to become a mainstream media art form (which I think it will) then we can''t avoid sensitive issues. How many controversial books and films have been written/made throughout history that addressed sensitive issues and made people think about things they might not have thought of before. If you strongly disagree with something then why not make a game that addresses that. I don''t think you could do it too explicitly at the moment or you would probably just be shooting yourself in the foot but hopefully when the industry matures and grows you would be able to do so and still have an audience. Untill then certain issues can be addressed more abstractly but shouldn''t be avoided.
On a side note, Peddler your post scared me quite a bit. I hope you don''t play FPS games and own a gun.
On the political side of things if gaming is to become a mainstream media art form (which I think it will) then we can''t avoid sensitive issues. How many controversial books and films have been written/made throughout history that addressed sensitive issues and made people think about things they might not have thought of before. If you strongly disagree with something then why not make a game that addresses that. I don''t think you could do it too explicitly at the moment or you would probably just be shooting yourself in the foot but hopefully when the industry matures and grows you would be able to do so and still have an audience. Untill then certain issues can be addressed more abstractly but shouldn''t be avoided.
On a side note, Peddler your post scared me quite a bit. I hope you don''t play FPS games and own a gun.
I beleive that the game your talking about, the prison camp game should be destroyed! I beleive that that peice of crud is terrible. It puts people into control of a camp that killed and injured about 6 million jews in WWII.
though I like games like "Goldeneye 007" and "Half-Life" I still don''t like games that all you do is kill people. Running around a shooting up people is what is getting some of these kids to do stuff. Colombine! Look at that! A bet those kids were shoot-em-up game gurus! I can see you liking a game, but when you go so far as to act like the person in the game!
Plus some of it is the the people selling the guns. How do kids get a hold of dangerous weapons like that!? Their parents may have one but the parents shouldn''t let the kids know!
"blow up a lawnmower plant, save a lawn gnome!"
though I like games like "Goldeneye 007" and "Half-Life" I still don''t like games that all you do is kill people. Running around a shooting up people is what is getting some of these kids to do stuff. Colombine! Look at that! A bet those kids were shoot-em-up game gurus! I can see you liking a game, but when you go so far as to act like the person in the game!
Plus some of it is the the people selling the guns. How do kids get a hold of dangerous weapons like that!? Their parents may have one but the parents shouldn''t let the kids know!
"blow up a lawnmower plant, save a lawn gnome!"
Frankly I''ll put in what I and my team deem fit to put in, nothing more, nothing less.
My morals don''t come into the picture. If I voluntarily apply for a Mature (18+) rating by the ESRB, I''ve done my part for morality. Frankly I like playing bloody games, simply as a good outlet for my stress
I think the real morally bereft people are retail companies and parents. Having worked in the business I know that salespeople are expressly told (off the record) to sell their Mature rated product to anyone, no matter how old or else they won''t meet their daily sales quota. (Which can easily be $4000-$5000 in sales per day for a small branch).
And of course the irresponsible parents that come in and buy their kids these games themselves without even glancing at content.
Not an opinion: this happens, and is everyday reality.
My morals don''t come into the picture. If I voluntarily apply for a Mature (18+) rating by the ESRB, I''ve done my part for morality. Frankly I like playing bloody games, simply as a good outlet for my stress
I think the real morally bereft people are retail companies and parents. Having worked in the business I know that salespeople are expressly told (off the record) to sell their Mature rated product to anyone, no matter how old or else they won''t meet their daily sales quota. (Which can easily be $4000-$5000 in sales per day for a small branch).
And of course the irresponsible parents that come in and buy their kids these games themselves without even glancing at content.
Not an opinion: this happens, and is everyday reality.
So m1dn1ght, you realise that the 18+ certificate game you create WILL be sold to underage kids but because you apply for that certificate you are under no moral obligation even though you know it means nothing?
That''s rubbish.
You can''t throw responsibility away like that, that''s a lack of morals not a moral basis.
If you said you didn''t think these games would hurt anyone then fine, that''s your opinion but just because there''s a useless governing body out there it doesn''t mean you can throw any obligation you think you would otherwise have away.
MikeD
That''s rubbish.
You can''t throw responsibility away like that, that''s a lack of morals not a moral basis.
If you said you didn''t think these games would hurt anyone then fine, that''s your opinion but just because there''s a useless governing body out there it doesn''t mean you can throw any obligation you think you would otherwise have away.
MikeD
Actually no that not what I''m saying MikeD. I''m not throwing away my moral obligation. Now personally I''d hate to see gore and violence removed from games. Yes it''s an added effect and doesn''t make a game. But what many people are asking of developers is the equivalent of Hollywood editing everything rated above a "G" until it meets the G-rating parameters. There are adult movies, as well as adult games, and if a kid plays it then someone has screwed up, but it''s sure as hell not the game developer.
Yes I agree there is some stuff too contraversial to show, but I''ll leave that up to whoever''s discretion. This isn''t the topic I''m on though.
Yes maybe I could have added a parental lock, or something similar. But in the end it bears as much weight as the rating. Yeah, I stand behind the rating system, even if it won''t work most of the time, it does work for a few people.
By applying for a mature rating by myself, means that I am making a game for ADULTS not children. You can''t put me on the block for that man. Sorry.
Yes I agree there is some stuff too contraversial to show, but I''ll leave that up to whoever''s discretion. This isn''t the topic I''m on though.
Yes maybe I could have added a parental lock, or something similar. But in the end it bears as much weight as the rating. Yeah, I stand behind the rating system, even if it won''t work most of the time, it does work for a few people.
By applying for a mature rating by myself, means that I am making a game for ADULTS not children. You can''t put me on the block for that man. Sorry.
When the ESRB was first created, it was stated that the labels were warnings intended for THE PARENTS to watch for. They are the ones upon whom the responsibility falls, according to the very people who made the warnings labels.
Anyone who makes the assumption that the Columbine Shootings were at all related to games is ignoring the details. These people did not shoot other students because they were desensatized to violence. They planned for weeks to go in a massacre as many people as they could. It wasn''t that they didn''t know it was wrong. It was that they knew it WAS wrong.
I don''t know what kind of desensatiztion would cause the kind of idiocy you need to have to think such an act is worthwhile. But you sure as hell don''t get it from gaming. Making the (incorrect) assumption that the must have been Quake players is just ridiculous (and wrong, too!)
Other than my 2 cents, I read the posts (betcha thought I didn''t!) and was really intrigued by SunandShadow''s idea. I find rape to be completely unwholesome and disgusting, but I believe that since it does happen frighteningly often, then it does have a place in fiction. To censor yourself from dicussing such topics is like just wishing they didn''t happen. War happens. Make a game about fighting in or ending a war. Tyranny happens, there are plenty of games about displacing tyrants (read: the 80s). Rape happens. If we portray it as the disgusting act that it is, we''ve done something far better than not portraying it at all.
I am also working on a game where on of the characters has been raped. It''s a long term project, but I am still interested in what people think of that.
Where does the Landfish live? Everywhere. Is not the Landfish the Buddha?
Anyone who makes the assumption that the Columbine Shootings were at all related to games is ignoring the details. These people did not shoot other students because they were desensatized to violence. They planned for weeks to go in a massacre as many people as they could. It wasn''t that they didn''t know it was wrong. It was that they knew it WAS wrong.
I don''t know what kind of desensatiztion would cause the kind of idiocy you need to have to think such an act is worthwhile. But you sure as hell don''t get it from gaming. Making the (incorrect) assumption that the must have been Quake players is just ridiculous (and wrong, too!)
Other than my 2 cents, I read the posts (betcha thought I didn''t!) and was really intrigued by SunandShadow''s idea. I find rape to be completely unwholesome and disgusting, but I believe that since it does happen frighteningly often, then it does have a place in fiction. To censor yourself from dicussing such topics is like just wishing they didn''t happen. War happens. Make a game about fighting in or ending a war. Tyranny happens, there are plenty of games about displacing tyrants (read: the 80s). Rape happens. If we portray it as the disgusting act that it is, we''ve done something far better than not portraying it at all.
I am also working on a game where on of the characters has been raped. It''s a long term project, but I am still interested in what people think of that.
Where does the Landfish live? Everywhere. Is not the Landfish the Buddha?
quote: Original post by Landfish
When the ESRB was first created, it was stated that the labels were warnings intended for THE PARENTS to watch for. They are the ones upon whom the responsibility falls, according to the very people who made the warnings labels.
So, if I decide to set up a regulatory body, I get to make the decision about who is responsible instead of me?
>quote:
>----------------------------------------------------------->--------------------
>I put it to you that eliminating all violence in computer >games will not stop school or any other form of actual >violence.
>----------------------------------------------------------->--------------------
>
>
>I agree that it will not stop it. I put it to you that it >would reduce it.
I disagree. Football (American), Soccer, and even worse Rugby have a worse effect. If you were to say we should limit violent games because they give people adrenaline rushes, why don''t we stop playing Football because they also do too? Why not stop firefighters because they may get an adrenaline rush that may make them kill someone? My point is, that if you cannot see the difference between right and wrong, fantasy and reality, murder and well... not-murder (couldn''t think of a word), then you have more problems than playing Doom, you would need serious help, or a re-programming (no pun intended)
>----------------------------------------------------------->--------------------
>I put it to you that eliminating all violence in computer >games will not stop school or any other form of actual >violence.
>----------------------------------------------------------->--------------------
>
>
>I agree that it will not stop it. I put it to you that it >would reduce it.
I disagree. Football (American), Soccer, and even worse Rugby have a worse effect. If you were to say we should limit violent games because they give people adrenaline rushes, why don''t we stop playing Football because they also do too? Why not stop firefighters because they may get an adrenaline rush that may make them kill someone? My point is, that if you cannot see the difference between right and wrong, fantasy and reality, murder and well... not-murder (couldn''t think of a word), then you have more problems than playing Doom, you would need serious help, or a re-programming (no pun intended)
Kylotan:
Yep. Ain''t it great? (sarcasm...) I''m not supporting the idea, I''m just saying *that''s* why ESRB ratings aren''t enforced by retailers.
Yep. Ain''t it great? (sarcasm...) I''m not supporting the idea, I''m just saying *that''s* why ESRB ratings aren''t enforced by retailers.
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